From the Shattered Men Guest Book
I just wanted to say how wonderful I think it is that I have finally found a league of CHRISTIAN Anti-Feminists! Because Christians, of course, know much more about the oppressions of women and have a greater right to make the claims they do... right? Using the Bible to back you up really makes it so much more legitimate. But I believe I diverge...where was I? Oh, yes: You have distorted the words of the Bible and the teachings of Christianity to suit your own perverted interests. You're basing your beliefs on women (and your entire faith) on words that were written thousands of years ago, some lost, some replaced, with the entire work translated and mistranslated. And, of course, placing the word "Christian" in front of "Feminists" is completely out of the question, but putting "Christian" in front of "Anti-Feminists" is totally understandable. Why, may I venture to ask, is it necessary to be "Christian" Anti-Feminists? By stating your religion in front of your political beliefs, aren't you simply trying to defend yourselves? Why not just be "Anti-Feminists" and stop hiding behind that untouchable religious epithet? Using the Bible to justify your believes of pro-oppression and degradation of women are perhaps, to religious zealots such as yourselves, sins in themselves, no? But I go to far. We must recall another issue in American history in which our actions were justified by the Bible... what was that? Oh, yes: it was slavery. I will not compare the horrific imprisonment of the black man (isn't that funny, how I wrote "man"? why not "people"? or "women"?) to that of women, but the suffering and oppression are present in both. But, as we recall, this is not a group of "Christian Racists"! I do believe that every man (and I use man, because that is the word which will probably get through to you) is entitled to his own opinion, but you cannot say that women have experienced no form of oppression. For the first time in all of human history, the tides are actually turned in FAVOR of women! The "Christian" Anti-Feminists seem to be no more than a counterculture in our society. How sad, that you men are feeling insecure (goodness no!) and have to protect your masculinity by insulting women. How disgusting, that women have been brainwashed to relinquish their own self-worth! To all of the women in this "club," you are capable of your OWN thoughts, are you not? Why do you allow men to tell you that the fight for your rights is pointless? Do you want to be domestic slaves? You're pushing back the progression of mankind! Can't you see how far we've (and I mean as a human race, not gender) have come?- do you exercise the right to vote? were you allowed to marry whom you loved? are you against the use birth of control? against a woman's right to divorce? against protection from harassment and rape? the right to an education? If so, then I have erred in my epistle: you ARE right in refuting your own femininity, but if not, perhaps you need to consider your place as a woman once more.
This person sent me an e-mail and then posted her e-mail in our guest book
Sir,
What, if you please, is your definition of "feminist?"
I checked, dear sir, and in our English language, it is the "social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." What's wrong with that? Could it be that you're discriminating against an entire gender based on the stereotypical bleeding-heart-bra-burning feminist? Of course there are women who feel themselves to be better, rather than equal, to men, who carry out their beliefs to the extreme and earn the censure from those who they are trying to defend. I do not support that kind of feminism. In fact, I was quite indifferent to the rights of women and their place in the social ladder until I saw your site (how comical!). But are women not PEOPLE?
Would you give a dog the right to vote before you gave it to a woman? How would you feel, sir, if you were the one forced to stay home and be subservient to your spouse, unable to hold your own rights or even speak out for yourself? Why are women not allowed to be as smart as men? Were we not born with brains or feelings? It's funny how we've gotten on the topic of racism... perhaps it IS better to be a Christian Racist then a Christian AntiFeminist. Really, is there a difference between them? When one chooses to discriminate against another group, are the feelings not the same? African-Americans have had more freedom than women anyway (don't you recall that ex-slaves were given the right to vote before women? why is it that black men can play the President in movies but women don't?).
But please, this is not a fight against African-Americans, who deserve no further torment than what they've already endured. And please, sir, how terribly narrow-minded and irrelevant was your comment about Wicca! That has nothing to do with the fact that it is a Feminist Group. Religion and politics should never have been intertwined in your argument to begin with. Perhaps there are Wiccan anti-feminists also! Goodness, what would we do about that! Would they be in the right because they too are anti- female?Many of the entries I have read in your guest book are from men who had a bad experience with ONE woman. I DO pity those men (those who deserve pity, anyway), as I would pity anyone who has suffered. Yes, if I was a man and my wife put me through a terrible divorce, I would rightly loathe everything about her. But that does not give me the right to hate (perhaps not hate, but rather discriminate against) all women everywhere! I don't like to use the Bible to justify my actions; I am a free human being capable of my OWN thought, thank you. But I see you are a religious man, sir, so I present you with some intellectual food for your own mind: Was not Jesus born of Mary? How could MAN exist at all, without Woman to bear children?
Allow me to present the following:
Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."No?
I have more:Acts 9:36, 18:24-26, 21:9
Romans 16:1, 16:3, 16:7
1 Corinthians 16:3
Philippians 4:2
Philemon 2
Have you ever read for YOURSELF "The Feminine Mystique?" "The Second Sex?" Can I go so far as to recommend "Jane Eyre," which talks about religion AND "feminism?" They are not insane female-domination texts, but are good pieces of literature. Perhaps you know of some anti-feminists works you can recommend to me? I don't want to be unfair.Are you, yourself, a heterosexual, sir?
I imagine you must be, as Christians also condemn the homosexuals (who've been around longer than Christianity has, by the way). Is it possible that you have a wife? How provoking it would be to meet the lady! I can only imagine what your engagement was like: "Woman, will you marry me, so I can preach to you your own worthlessness, force myself upon you every night, and proclaim the righteousness which is Man?" "Of course, darling."
But I apologize. The point of this letter was not, as I have made it, to criticize you as a person; no, that was honestly not my intention- please pardon me. (I apologize once more for my prolificacy, its not so much that I'm trying to outdo you as it is that I do like to write.) But are there any women in this group? I would desperately like to hear their voices (if they're allowed to speak, that is).As I have stated, I am not against the Shattered Men, whom I feel deserve sympathy, as any suffering creature should.
But, sir, if you have managed to read this far, I feel you are being unjust in preventing the progression of Women. I am flattered, confused, annoyed, and exhausted by your invitations to join your clubs, but, for the reasons described above, I humbly decline. Your faithful servant in all that is right,KMV
Since she chose the guest book as a forum to get her message across, I posted this to reply to her:
Since "A Final Rebutal from A Christian Woman" chose this forum to get her message across, I am posting my reply to her here since she has chosen not to join either group to see what they are all about. Most of her questions would have been answered in them. I have had most of my post deleted from feminist forums but we will not delete theirs from ours...TRUTH HAS NOTHING TO HIDE!
Well Kristen...it seems you are doing the very samething you are accusing us of doing but since you are afeminist, I guess that is ok?
You are sterotyping all those that oppose the feminist agenda from just me? Many oppose this feminist agenda from Concerned Women for Americal to the IndependantWomen's Forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christianantifeminists/messages/1 will give a list of the first messages in this group.
Look at #4 to see why it was started. Of course almost any generalization will have exceptions.
We often hear sugar is white, but we do have brown sugar too..but in general, sugar IS white. In general, the feminist movement is far from wanting equality. Just check out the NOW web site. They have a war on fathers and they are trying to tell society that ONLY reason fathers want custody of their children after a divorce is so they can keep abusing them. This is what you call equality?
NO fathers rights movement that I am aware of wants the tables turned completely. We are all asking for the EQUAL rights the feminist CLAIM they wanted in the first place...EQUAL custody!
Shattered Men is needed because the NATIONAL ORGANIZATION of WOMEN wrote and pushed through theViolence Against WOMEN Act and they fought tooth and nail to keep it limited to protecting women ONLY.
They not only could care less about violent women, they encourage it if the victim is a man.
ShatteredMen would not even be here if it was not for a wonderful woman in England asking about her abusive MOM and she was told many MANY feminist groups that there were NO violent women. She did her own researchand made a web site which changed my mind about thefeminist.
I USE to be one until GOD opened my eyes through Sue. I am doing research on a paper I am writting and it is amazing the lengths feminist will go through to rewrite the Bible because they say it was written by MEN so it is not valid...thus denying the GOD of the BIBLE and the inerrant word of GOD.
You ask I asked about the about the difference between a Christian racist and a Christian antifeminist.
Read it again...it is the Racist and the feminist that are so much alike. I ask what you would think of a Christian racist. Would you be against that idealogy?
It is no different between being a racist and a feminist....or a masculist.
ALL would be wrong as each seeks special favors for their group apart from all other. You ask..."How would you feel, sir, if you were the one forced to stay home and be subservient to your spouse, unable to hold your own rights or even speak out for yourself? Why are women not allowed to be as smart as men?"
WHERE in the world did you get that from ANYTHING we have written?
Check out the following messages at least on this page:
http://www.shatterdmen.com/kensPage.htm
19: MARRIAGE...HIS DUTIES....HER DUTIES
139: The Value of a man,...or a Woman
165: Personal Responsibility!
Note at the TOP of this page...and it is at the top ofEVERY page on this web site:How to have eternal life You know, I could not even find salvation talked about in Christian feminist.
I did find several false statements like both Christians AND NON Christians will be in heaven...it was NOT contested by ANYONE on that forum.
Wicca is a feminist religion..it is based upon a goddest.
You said: "Would they be in the right because they too are anti- female?"
Kristen... an anti FEMINIST is NOT...NOT...NOT anti FEMALE!!!!
If anything a feminist is anti female because they do not hold women equally ACCOUNTABLE or RESPONSIBLE for their OWN actions.
They find excuses as to why women commit crimes and they deny that women can be and are violent. If you do not hold someone accountable, you are treating them as a child. Does that show respect for them?
I did find a lot of evidence that FEMINIST was far more important then...CHRISTIAN.
Yes some men are angry at their spouse for their abuse but I do find far fewer men that are angry at ALLwomen for what ONE or even a handful have done then I find women angry at ALL men for what one has done.
Shattered Men has BOTH men and women in it and many of each have been abused by the other gender but I do not think you bothered to find that out did you?
You see...WE will not deny that both hurt. I have seen several forums to help abused women that would not even give an abused man the time of day.
WE will NOTdo that!
I find many of the things you have said in this as STRAW MAN agruments....meant to throw one off track. I sent these inviations to you to allow you to post these charges in these groups.
I have been CENSORED in every feminist forum I have been in...WE do not censore things that oppose us..for TRUTH HAS NOTHINGTO HIDE!
In short Kristen...try to find out what we are about before jumping to conclusions.ken
Kristen, Please join us and find out what we are about. We have used "Christian antifeminist" as a direct result of being banned from Christian Feminist. It is odd you talk about slavery since that would be like saying there can be a Christian RACIST. Would it not be better to be against the ideals of racism? Most of the feminist I have seen do not want equality. They want women to rule. Many of the feminist I know want to worship a goddest. I have even seen postive things posted about Wicca in a Christian Feminist group that went unopposed by anyone. I guess that is ok Shattered Men is a group that exist because of the double standards the feminist set up...but please know..we do not oppose any person...just the false ideal that women are the same as men.
Kristen You are welcome to join both Shattered Men and Christian Antifeminst and you can post the message you left in our guest book in both places. I assure you, it will be approved.
This person sent me an e-mail and then posted her e-mail in our guest book
Sir,
What, if you please, is your definition of "feminist?"
I checked, dear sir, and in our English language, it is the "social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." What's wrong with that? Could it be that you're discriminating against an entire gender based on the stereotypical bleeding-heart-bra-burning feminist? Of course there are women who feel themselves to be better, rather than equal, to men, who carry out their beliefs to the extreme and earn the censure from those who they are trying to defend. I do not support that kind of feminism. In fact, I was quite indifferent to the rights of women and their place in the social ladder until I saw your site (how comical!). But are women not PEOPLE?
Would you give a dog the right to vote before you gave it to a woman? How would you feel, sir, if you were the one forced to stay home and be subservient to your spouse, unable to hold your own rights or even speak out for yourself? Why are women not allowed to be as smart as men? Were we not born with brains or feelings? It's funny how we've gotten on the topic of racism... perhaps it IS better to be a Christian Racist then a Christian AntiFeminist. Really, is there a difference between them? When one chooses to discriminate against another group, are the feelings not the same? African-Americans have had more freedom than women anyway (don't you recall that ex-slaves were given the right to vote before women? why is it that black men can play the President in movies but women don't?).
But please, this is not a fight against African-Americans, who deserve no further torment than what they've already endured. And please, sir, how terribly narrow-minded and irrelevant was your comment about Wicca! That has nothing to do with the fact that it is a Feminist Group. Religion and politics should never have been intertwined in your argument to begin with. Perhaps there are Wiccan anti-feminists also! Goodness, what would we do about that! Would they be in the right because they too are anti- female?Many of the entries I have read in your guest book are from men who had a bad experience with ONE woman. I DO pity those men (those who deserve pity, anyway), as I would pity anyone who has suffered. Yes, if I was a man and my wife put me through a terrible divorce, I would rightly loathe everything about her. But that does not give me the right to hate (perhaps not hate, but rather discriminate against) all women everywhere! I don't like to use the Bible to justify my actions; I am a free human being capable of my OWN thought, thank you. But I see you are a religious man, sir, so I present you with some intellectual food for your own mind: Was not Jesus born of Mary? How could MAN exist at all, without Woman to bear children?
Allow me to present the following:
Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."No?
I have more:Acts 9:36, 18:24-26, 21:9
Romans 16:1, 16:3, 16:7
1 Corinthians 16:3
Philippians 4:2
Philemon 2
Have you ever read for YOURSELF "The Feminine Mystique?" "The Second Sex?" Can I go so far as to recommend "Jane Eyre," which talks about religion AND "feminism?" They are not insane female-domination texts, but are good pieces of literature. Perhaps you know of some anti-feminists works you can recommend to me? I don't want to be unfair.Are you, yourself, a heterosexual, sir?
I imagine you must be, as Christians also condemn the homosexuals (who've been around longer than Christianity has, by the way). Is it possible that you have a wife? How provoking it would be to meet the lady! I can only imagine what your engagement was like: "Woman, will you marry me, so I can preach to you your own worthlessness, force myself upon you every night, and proclaim the righteousness which is Man?" "Of course, darling."
But I apologize. The point of this letter was not, as I have made it, to criticize you as a person; no, that was honestly not my intention- please pardon me. (I apologize once more for my prolificacy, its not so much that I'm trying to outdo you as it is that I do like to write.) But are there any women in this group? I would desperately like to hear their voices (if they're allowed to speak, that is).As I have stated, I am not against the Shattered Men, whom I feel deserve sympathy, as any suffering creature should.
But, sir, if you have managed to read this far, I feel you are being unjust in preventing the progression of Women. I am flattered, confused, annoyed, and exhausted by your invitations to join your clubs, but, for the reasons described above, I humbly decline. Your faithful servant in all that is right,KMV
Since she chose the guest book as a forum to get her message across, I posted this to reply to her:
Since "A Final Rebutal from A Christian Woman" chose this forum to get her message across, I am posting my reply to her here since she has chosen not to join either group to see what they are all about. Most of her questions would have been answered in them. I have had most of my post deleted from feminist forums but we will not delete theirs from ours...TRUTH HAS NOTHING TO HIDE!
Well Kristen...it seems you are doing the very samething you are accusing us of doing but since you are afeminist, I guess that is ok?
You are sterotyping all those that oppose the feminist agenda from just me? Many oppose this feminist agenda from Concerned Women for Americal to the IndependantWomen's Forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christianantifeminists/messages/1 will give a list of the first messages in this group.
Look at #4 to see why it was started. Of course almost any generalization will have exceptions.
We often hear sugar is white, but we do have brown sugar too..but in general, sugar IS white. In general, the feminist movement is far from wanting equality. Just check out the NOW web site. They have a war on fathers and they are trying to tell society that ONLY reason fathers want custody of their children after a divorce is so they can keep abusing them. This is what you call equality?
NO fathers rights movement that I am aware of wants the tables turned completely. We are all asking for the EQUAL rights the feminist CLAIM they wanted in the first place...EQUAL custody!
Shattered Men is needed because the NATIONAL ORGANIZATION of WOMEN wrote and pushed through theViolence Against WOMEN Act and they fought tooth and nail to keep it limited to protecting women ONLY.
They not only could care less about violent women, they encourage it if the victim is a man.
ShatteredMen would not even be here if it was not for a wonderful woman in England asking about her abusive MOM and she was told many MANY feminist groups that there were NO violent women. She did her own researchand made a web site which changed my mind about thefeminist.
I USE to be one until GOD opened my eyes through Sue. I am doing research on a paper I am writting and it is amazing the lengths feminist will go through to rewrite the Bible because they say it was written by MEN so it is not valid...thus denying the GOD of the BIBLE and the inerrant word of GOD.
You ask I asked about the about the difference between a Christian racist and a Christian antifeminist.
Read it again...it is the Racist and the feminist that are so much alike. I ask what you would think of a Christian racist. Would you be against that idealogy?
It is no different between being a racist and a feminist....or a masculist.
ALL would be wrong as each seeks special favors for their group apart from all other. You ask..."How would you feel, sir, if you were the one forced to stay home and be subservient to your spouse, unable to hold your own rights or even speak out for yourself? Why are women not allowed to be as smart as men?"
WHERE in the world did you get that from ANYTHING we have written?
Check out the following messages at least on this page:
http://www.shatterdmen.com/kensPage.htm
19: MARRIAGE...HIS DUTIES....HER DUTIES
139: The Value of a man,...or a Woman
165: Personal Responsibility!
Note at the TOP of this page...and it is at the top ofEVERY page on this web site:How to have eternal life You know, I could not even find salvation talked about in Christian feminist.
I did find several false statements like both Christians AND NON Christians will be in heaven...it was NOT contested by ANYONE on that forum.
Wicca is a feminist religion..it is based upon a goddest.
You said: "Would they be in the right because they too are anti- female?"
Kristen... an anti FEMINIST is NOT...NOT...NOT anti FEMALE!!!!
If anything a feminist is anti female because they do not hold women equally ACCOUNTABLE or RESPONSIBLE for their OWN actions.
They find excuses as to why women commit crimes and they deny that women can be and are violent. If you do not hold someone accountable, you are treating them as a child. Does that show respect for them?
I did find a lot of evidence that FEMINIST was far more important then...CHRISTIAN.
Yes some men are angry at their spouse for their abuse but I do find far fewer men that are angry at ALLwomen for what ONE or even a handful have done then I find women angry at ALL men for what one has done.
Shattered Men has BOTH men and women in it and many of each have been abused by the other gender but I do not think you bothered to find that out did you?
You see...WE will not deny that both hurt. I have seen several forums to help abused women that would not even give an abused man the time of day.
WE will NOTdo that!
I find many of the things you have said in this as STRAW MAN agruments....meant to throw one off track. I sent these inviations to you to allow you to post these charges in these groups.
I have been CENSORED in every feminist forum I have been in...WE do not censore things that oppose us..for TRUTH HAS NOTHINGTO HIDE!
In short Kristen...try to find out what we are about before jumping to conclusions.ken
Kristen, Please join us and find out what we are about. We have used "Christian antifeminist" as a direct result of being banned from Christian Feminist. It is odd you talk about slavery since that would be like saying there can be a Christian RACIST. Would it not be better to be against the ideals of racism? Most of the feminist I have seen do not want equality. They want women to rule. Many of the feminist I know want to worship a goddest. I have even seen postive things posted about Wicca in a Christian Feminist group that went unopposed by anyone. I guess that is ok Shattered Men is a group that exist because of the double standards the feminist set up...but please know..we do not oppose any person...just the false ideal that women are the same as men.
Kristen You are welcome to join both Shattered Men and Christian Antifeminst and you can post the message you left in our guest book in both places. I assure you, it will be approved.
posted by Shattered Men | 10:24 PM
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